Curse

Nekodesu · Nov 14, 2010, 01:37 AM // 01:37

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Originally Posted by Reformed

I'll get flamed but w/e...if it comes down to a choice of allocating resources to a profession that is nowhere near the bottom in PvE vs. new content this is basically a no-brainer. I have a really hard time feeling sorry for them when Eles suck so much worse "at their job", especially in HM, and are much older.

This is why I HAAAATEEEE playing elementalist in PvE. The only way to get near some decent dmg is to eat every damn sweet in this game

Cuilan · Nov 14, 2010, 01:58 AM // 01:58

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Originally Posted by Nekodesu

The only way to get near some decent dmg is to eat every damn sweet in this game

Or use a better build like AP nuke spam, ER, or something.

Chthon · Nov 14, 2010, 03:37 AM // 03:37

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Originally Posted by FoxBat

There was zero claim to this effect. All I saw in that post was about the CLIENT.

Same point applies. I'll believe he knows what the client's up to when he provides specific references to verifiable issues with the things we can observe (the .dat and the packets), pops a contraband copy of the source code out of his backside, or proves himself to be one of the rare individuals who can read machine code.

Quote:

EVERY single skill in the game has to be indexed through by the client at certain times, regardless of if it's being used at present or not. A database is required to sort through all the icons, costs, types, profession/attribute affiliation, activation times and conditions, recharges, descriptions including dynamic numbers, targeting, activation range, and all graphical effects to be pre-loaded on zone load. When you hit your skill panel, when a player or a monster uses a skill, all of that has to be prepared for - every single player and NPC on every team, every monster existing and yet to be spawned. Maybe this is handled on bootup, maybe it's handled every time a zone is done, I don't know the specifics, but bottom line is the client has to be on top of all of this. Despite their streaming tech, they've had to push a client update out for every single skill tweak - alot has to be kept track of to minimize client-server communication and maximize prediction.

So what? As a very wise comp sci prof once said to me back in college, "you know your data set is going to be small -- just brute force it." Yeah, so we're indexing some data on zone in. What gives you the impression that it's too much data? I see no indication from my end that performance is unacceptable, or even that it would turn unacceptable if another thousand skills were added. For that matter, you prove too much; you make an excellent argument for why the client has to behave in that manner, which means there's no point in complaining about what it does to performance.

(Actually, now that I think about it, it would be trivially easy to prune what loads by having the server query what's in the zone (static), what's in the quests in the zone (static), and what's on the player/hero/hench bars (static) and then tossing it off to the clients. Only downside is that it would create a vulnerability for a "I know my opponent's skillbar" hack along the same lines as the old D2 maphacks (server creates information the user shouldn't necessarily know yet, gives it to client, hack takes it from client and gives it to user). The fact that a-net hasn't bothered to do this implies to me that they don't see it as a serious performance issue.)

Ensign · Nov 14, 2010, 06:32 AM // 06:32

MoI wasn't split because no one cares, and it isn't worth 5 minutes of someone's time to split it, let alone the amount of time it actually takes to make the change.

Yet apparently the community will bitch and whine about anything that moves skill power backwards no matter how irrelevant and trivial.

The biggest practical effect of this change is that less people will die to the Elementalist Construct in the future.

FoxBat · Nov 14, 2010, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Same point applies. I'll believe he knows what the client's up to when he provides specific references to verifiable issues with the things we can observe (the .dat and the packets), pops a contraband copy of the source code out of his backside, or proves himself to be one of the rare individuals who can read machine code.

It's not even close to the same point. Maybe he has read through the stuff firsthand, or maybe he's relying on the word of the numerous people who have gone through it themselves designing gstats or bots or skillmonitor hacks or whatever, setting breakpoints and watching how the skill data is enumerated. Unlike server stuff the client is very far from opaque to people with disassemblers/debuggers, and it is far from unreasonable that some kind of knowledge just might get out from what these people have been up to. It could still be wrong, but it's in a completely different category from virtually unknowable.

Sytherek · Nov 14, 2010, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Can someone explain WHY the change to MoI is so bad?

If you have at least 8 Water Magic (9 is probably better), the recharge time is less than the duration -- so what's the problem?

Elnino · Nov 14, 2010, 08:06 AM // 08:06

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Originally Posted by Sytherek

Can someone explain WHY the change to MoI is so bad?

If you have at least 8 Water Magic (9 is probably better), the recharge time is less than the duration -- so what's the problem?

The problem is, this changed seemed to have struck a nerve somewhere inside these people for no apparent reason.

The change to MoI was hardly even a nerf. Like you have said, it can still be easily maintained and there are ways to prevent it from being stripped.

Personally, I believe that MoI wasn't the skill that should have been nerfed. It's the water magic hexes which are the root of the problem. Freezing gust comes to mind here.

drkn · Nov 14, 2010, 10:17 AM // 10:17

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Can someone explain WHY the change to MoI is so bad?

Short version: meddling in one game format because of the other is wrong. It's not about the skill, it's about the principle. PvE and PvP need to be balanced independently - si non confectus, non reficat. Making unused skills even less useful only limits the non-broken skill pool available to players, eventually making players run the terribad broken builds not only because they're loleasy and steamrolling everything, but also there's no fun/useful alternative.

Karate Jesus · Nov 15, 2010, 02:00 AM // 02:00

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Originally Posted by Warvic

As much as i hate KJ sometimes, i also love him for the things he does for this community

And this:

Thank you, I think?

Anyway, thanks to the guys who helped inform the community of the final deadline (like Jake/Errant Venture) on the update. Sorry we missed it by a day.

I hope the dervish update is on time, and I'll try to share any news about it that I feel is appropriate for the forums.

DRGN · Nov 15, 2010, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Short version: meddling in one game format because of the other is wrong. It's not about the skill, it's about the principle. PvE and PvP need to be balanced independently - si non confectus, non reficat. Making unused skills even less useful only limits the non-broken skill pool available to players, eventually making players run the terribad broken builds not only because they're loleasy and steamrolling everything, but also there's no fun/useful alternative.

As has been mentioned multiple times before, this train of thought is exactly the cause of a good bit of the broken stuff you're decrying. Pretty sure we wouldn't have stuff perma Shadow Form or Ether Renewal if they would have been brought into PvP, and the overpowered PvE-only crap could have been dealt with from day one if it was going to be. I don't see why need a split for every single skill that gets altered in even the slightest way; if you're arguing an actual principle, then a one second increase in recharge warrants a split.

ErrantVenture · Nov 15, 2010, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Short version: meddling in one game format because of the other is wrong. It's not about the skill, it's about the principle. PvE and PvP need to be balanced independently - si non confectus, non reficat. Making unused skills even less useful only limits the non-broken skill pool available to players, eventually making players run the terribad broken builds not only because they're loleasy and steamrolling everything, but also there's no fun/useful alternative.

What you don't get is that creating a news skill takes literally hours (read 6-7+) for a developer. And every new skill that's added degrades the performance of the client (more skills = more lag, crashes, bugs, etc). So stuff your shitty principles, if a skill change doesn't break PvE or PvP, it doesn't get split. That way the client works better and the developers don't waste their time on pointless tasks.

Sirius Bsns · Nov 15, 2010, 03:38 AM // 03:38

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Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

What you don't get is that creating a news skill takes literally hours (read 6-7+) for a developer. And every new skill that's added degrades the performance of the client (more skills = more lag, crashes, bugs, etc). So stuff your shitty principles, if a skill change doesn't break PvE or PvP, it doesn't get split. That way the client works better and the developers don't waste their time on pointless tasks.

There's always a way to fix and correct bugs, and I don't believe your statement about skill creation causing performance issues. Show proof, because I think that's just pure Bologna. Also, splitting a skill to allow PvE's version to remain strong enough for Hard Mode is not what I call "pointless", despite Anet possibly thinking in the same shade as you [because it's quite clear they didn't split some skills that evidently were already weak to begin with for HM in PvE]. Power Shot was also a random terrible nerf, a nerf caused only by GvG Ranger Spike abuse in PVP.

ErrantVenture · Nov 15, 2010, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

There's always a way to fix and correct bugs, and I don't believe your statement about skill creation causing performance issues. Show proof, because I think that's just pure Bologna. Also, splitting a skill to allow PvE's version to remain strong enough for Hard Mode is not what I call "pointless", despite Anet possibly thinking in the same shade as you [because it's quite clear they didn't split some skills that evidently were already weak to begin with for HM in PvE]. Power Shot was also a random terrible nerf, a nerf caused only by GvG Ranger Spike abuse in PVP.

There's no way to show proof. It's been stated several times by developers to members of the TK and it's common knowledge throughout the GvG community. If there's any possible way to avoid splitting a skill, the developers will take it because adding skills to the game degrades the performance of the client. If you choose not to believe it, that's fine. But there's no reason NOT to believe it. Why else would the developers avoid splitting skills? Contrary to popular opinion, they're not complete morons. If splitting skills didn't have some negative effect, they would have just split EVERY skill when skills splits were introduced, even if there was no difference between the PvP and PvE versions.

In regards to the comment about MoI in PvE. No one has EVER used MoI in anything remotely resembling high end PvE. It's single target damage, and it gets reduced to nothing by HM armor levels. Water eles don't get used in speed clears, or even vanquishing because there are better options available. Even if there weren't: a difference of 15s in recharge means nothing in PvE as MoI is still maintainable. Stop coming up with lameass arguments that don't make sense.

Chthon · Nov 15, 2010, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

What you don't get is that creating a news skill takes literally hours (read 6-7+) for a developer. And every new skill that's added degrades the performance of the client (more skills = more lag, crashes, bugs, etc). So stuff your shitty principles, if a skill change doesn't break PvE or PvP, it doesn't get split. That way the client works better and the developers don't waste their time on pointless tasks.

Let me say this again: WHAT is your basis for saying that? How do you know how long the devs spend per skill change? DO you have verifiable specifics regarding performance degradation?

ErrantVenture · Nov 15, 2010, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Let me say this again: WHAT is your basis for saying that? How do you know how long the devs spend per skill change? DO you have verifiable specifics regarding performance degradation?

As I said before, I don't have any proof other than what developers have told me and people I know in the TK. I don't have specifics on the degradation of the client's functionality but I know for sure that it takes inordinate amounts of time to modify skills because of the style in which the client was designed. There's nothing in writing that I can post in good conscience, though. But as my previous post explains, there's no reason for me to lie and there's no reason why Anet wouldn't just split EVERY skill if there wasn't some negative consequence to doing so.

Essence Snow · Nov 15, 2010, 05:14 AM // 05:14

If that rationale holds water, then why not take skills, which are of no use to anyone, and use that "spot" to use for splitting skills that have use. Basically from what I'm hearing it's a space issue? There are plenty of skill which are not used by anyone b/c well let's face it .....they stink. It would stand to reason that since they perceive some skills unworthy of a split, and nerfing them so they'll see no use....Why not them just delete those skills' "content" and replace them with splits of skills which are worth it? There's no point in having skills which won't see use. The non splitting of nerfed skills gives the portrait of irrelavence to the space occupied by the trivial version.

Short of the long......delete crappy skills to make space for the warranted splts..if this client issue truely is the case.

reaper with no name · Nov 15, 2010, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Because that would be equivalent to a skill change.

And those apparently take a long time because of the aforementioned client crappiness.

Xaft · Nov 15, 2010, 05:38 AM // 05:38

you know, all this talk about space and stuff got me thinking. if it is true that every map has to load the different visual and/or actual effects of every skill at some point. wouldn't it make sense to make it so that all pve versions only load in pve maps, and all pvp versions only load on pvp maps?

that way the client is only having to process one version of the skill at one time. it would allow for all skills to be split with no issues since as of this moment the client is handling more than what it will if an update like this ever happened.

drkn · Nov 15, 2010, 06:05 AM // 06:05

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As has been mentioned multiple times before, this train of thought is exactly the cause of a good bit of the broken stuff you're decrying. Pretty sure we wouldn't have stuff perma Shadow Form or Ether Renewal if they would have been brought into PvP, and the overpowered PvE-only crap could have been dealt with from day one if it was going to be. I don't see why need a split for every single skill that gets altered in even the slightest way; if you're arguing an actual principle, then a one second increase in recharge warrants a split.

Explicitly answered in the other thread. You, sir, are wrong.

Quote:

And every new skill that's added degrades the performance of the client (more skills = more lag, crashes, bugs, etc).

Official quote or doesn't happen. Period. Sorry.
Moreso, i haven't noticed any more lagging or any kind of 'degradation' after the mes update in May and it has introduced several new splits. Even if it does degrade the client, it's not felt by the user, unless maybe they have created 3000 new skills.

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What you don't get is that creating a news skill takes literally hours (read 6-7+) for a developer.

As in: recoding the skill's recharge only, or testing if the update is viable and working? If it's the former, don't make it look more silly than it already is. If the latter, ain't it the devs' & TK, the volunteers, job to do? Just because testing takes long doesn't mean it should be avoided.

Skye Marin · Nov 15, 2010, 06:57 AM // 06:57

While I understand that splitting skills probably takes a lot of work because it was implemented well after the original game was released, and wasn't designed to take in every skill, I still prefer skills not to be split if possible.

In my brain, I'm currently storing number data about litterally thousands of skills. It's in there now, and likely won't be going away anytime soon. Along with that is also data about almost all previous skill incarnations, updates, functionality changes, and roughly the dates that they were implemented.

The devs choosing to not split a skill is great in many cases because, for people who play both PvP and PvE, you don't have to remember both versions.

Besides, if a skill is going to be split for PvE, they had better make it worthwhile, else it's a big "so what?". I know I'd rather have impressive, fun, and unique splits like most of the new Mesmer PvE skills, than a boring, useless -15 second recharge on a skill that needs to be 16 specced to be useful anyways.

On time, under budget, or bug free. Because budget is hard locked, the only thing that will speed the delivery of updates and reduce bugs is for the devs to simply not bite off more than they can chew.